Interview: Tradewind Aviation Co-Founder David Zipkin
Over coffee in Eleuthera, the chief commercial officer discusses the future of sustainable aviation fuel, electric aircraft, and the realities of running a semi-private jet company.
Listen to the Interview
Tradewind was founded in 2001 by two brothers, Eric and David Zipkin, who shared a dream of flying commercially. Both trained pilots, they scrounged enough cash to go in on an eight-seat Cessna Caravan turboprop, and never looked back.
“I remember the day we picked up the Cessna in Maine, sat on the plane and kinda looked at each other and said, ‘Now what?’” David recalled in our first interview.
Fast forward to today, and this little jet company-that-could has a fleet of 32 planes, the majority of which are Swiss-made, Pilatus PC-12 aircraft in gunmetal gray. They’re beautiful in the sun, especially if that sun is reflecting off the postage-stamp runway in St. Barts, where Tradewind has been dominating the short-haul market for more than a decade.
Yet, David is quick to admit: “We can’t be a one-trick pony.” To continue to grow, they need to enter new markets. This winter Tradewind will launch scheduled charter service from Palm Beach, Florida to Eleuthera and Marsh Harbour in the Bahamas. With a new hub just outside PBI, the company aims to dominate the Southeast Florida-Bahamas route, just as they have done in the Caribbean.
Here, an excerpt from our interview:
Two years ago, you had 23 planes serving about 100 regional destinations. Fast forward to today. What’s changed?
We're 30 aircraft right now, with two more delivering next month, so we'll be at 32. The vast majority of that fleet is the Pilatus PC-12. Lovely, very modern, Swiss-built aircraft that really is the backbone of providing what we do which is efficient, comfortable, shorter-range types of flights, where a larger jet would just be overkill. And of course, the airlines do it terribly.
We also have three Citation jets, traditional private jets, and that's all on demand. On demand is anywhere you want to go. And the scheduled flights are particular routes. You mentioned 100 destinations. Theoretically, that number is much higher because in the US alone there are over 5,000 small airports that we can access.
What’s the catch, economically?
There's nothing more expensive than an airplane sitting on the ground. They need to be in the air, and being paid for. What we do costs a lot to produce, between pilots, crew, maintenance, ground staff and everything. So utilization is important.
Traditional airlines pack together flights from start to finish, in some cases overnight. If they're flying to, say Cancun, there is a time when everyone leaves. There's a time when everyone comes back; so they put that aircraft to use on other routes to fill in those spots. They get very good utilization as long as they do that network planning carefully. We are constantly looking at network planning as well, but it becomes a little bit more challenging because of the private charter side of our business. We don't know when those flights are going to land — because ‘on demand’ means whenever you want to go.
All of this is data. Is there technology that helps you figure out the traffic trends? It seems like you're kinda…
We're doing a little better than watching the wind blow! It's a hodgepodge of technology, spreadsheets and looking at the trends of other operators. We have access to data that shows where private jet activity is going. There's a company called WingX based in Germany, and they aggregate all of the flight data, which is public domain, into a portal where you can slice and dice it in every different way. It's pretty cool. You can see by the minute where the activity is.
Did you look at that before deciding to launch a new route here?
We did. We opened our new base in South Florida in September (2023). Leading into that we had decisions to make around how many airplanes we needed; what are the typical routes that we're going to fly? What is the stage length of those routes? What time of day will most people fly? And all of that goes into the decision.
We happen to be based next to Palm Beach, because the data confirms strong demand. I mean, it doesn't take a genius to figure out. We knew we would be flying a lot of flights either to or from Palm Beach, but also to Boca Raton and Fort Lauderdale. And there's a good amount of private aircraft activity in and out of Tampa. When we choose our base, we want to minimize our empty legs. We chose a place that was most likely to optimize that.
Anything within that territory is fair game and it's priced on an occupied basis, so the client doesn't pay for the empty legs. We price it in, but it is kind of our risk. It's much better for the client because they know exactly how much a 1-hour flight is going to cost. Whatever empty legs are necessary to accomplish that — that's on us. So we have to be very careful about where we’re based.
So some bazillionaire says, I really just need to go to this other airport but I don't see it on your website. You have to do the math and say yes or no, based on that?
The math is already pre-done before we make the commitment. The program is anywhere point-to-point in the region, it's the same price. It’s on us to do the proper research in advance, and monitor how it's going of course. But it's all about optimizing the schedule and minimizing the non-revenue flying; minimizing the empty legs. Choosing the base nearest to where most of the flying is going to be.
Most operators in the private jet business make that commitment to certain regions. Sometimes it's worldwide in the case of NetJets, but we're very careful about it. We have to be. It's okay for us to lose on one flight because in the aggregate, if it satisfies the needs of that client. Long ago, the private jet business was mostly: we're gonna charge you for every flight necessary to accomplish your trip. At some point it sort of shifted over because the industry realized that the extra flying you have to do to accomplish a private charter trip is not the client's problem, it’s your problem. And so that's how we view it now.
How far does customization or personalization go in your business?
We are in the business of catering to on-demand clients, and supporting whatever travel they need in the best way possible. From a capability standpoint, there's a correct aircraft for every job. It's what's most efficient. Yes, we're catering to a crowd that is demanding and also capable from a financial standpoint, but they don't want to waste money. So, for a one hour flight, whether it's New York to Maine or Palm Beach to the Bahamas, there are plenty of different aircraft that you can choose from to do that. But we really specialize in doing that at a private jet level experience, but for less cost because the Pilatus is so much more efficient. We can also get people closer to their destination because we can land in smaller runways. So when we get that call for a flight within, let's say 300 miles, it's perfect for us — if that's part of our region.
But, to your question, anything's really possible. When you're operating a plane that can land in smaller runways, it opens up a larger swath of opportunity. When someone asks you for, let's say, JFK to Albany, the next question is: Where are you actually going? Let me help you do it better. Oftentimes, that person is on the West Side of Manhattan, and they're actually going to Lake Placid or Saratoga. Well, there's a little airport right there. So we can get them five minutes from where they're going. Generally speaking, that's what the private travel business does.
You have your value prop down!
We like it because there are very few other operators that focus on that side of the business. It's harder because the numbers are smaller.
You have to be small and nimble enough…
Yeah, you have to be nimble enough. And then it goes back to the network planning thing. It doesn't work for us to just fly one charter per airplane per day. Because they're only 1-hour flights on average.
What do you do with the other 23 hours?
Right. You're paying for the crew, and everything else is a sunk cost. So, we're mixing and matching and working the matrix of the schedule constantly.
But that's how you are able to pull off this impossible feat — which is flying private for less.
Pretty much. To put some numbers to it: The average price for a one hour flight on a Pilatus PC-12 for a private charter is around $5,000 an hour, with eight seats. Say you have a family or four couples, you know, that’s under $1000 per person for an on demand private charter pretty much anywhere you want to go. That's pretty darn good. Now, contrast that with a gulfstream trip to Europe, that's over $100,000 each way. So it's a much bigger ask. I hesitate to go too far down the affordability rabbit hole, because it's still not. But it's less than a lot of people think for shorter distance flying.
A lot of people discovered that, coming out of the pandemic.
Yes, it was originally driven by health and safety. But lots of clients also realized they could make it part of their lifestyle.
I'm curious about profitability. When we first talked you mentioned that you didn't take on a lot of debt. That you were growing organically. How does that work, exactly?
Profitability in aviation can be elusive. For us, it's about responsible, sustainable growth, which is not common in the industry for whatever reason. Whether it's going SPAC or private equity or whatever it is, investors love to throw money at private aviation. I think that's a blessing and a curse, mostly a curse. Because it's very hard to make money in this business. The margins are very slim. And if you're sitting on a pile of cash, your decisions are not going to be as careful. And that has worked its way through several examples over the last few years. We are a little more hamstrung, because we're self-funded. But it's a good thing.
You're still self funded?
We are. I mean, we have debt on aircraft, like anyone else. But we're self funded. That's not to say that we wouldn't explore an opportunity. At some point, let's say there was another company that was a good idea to acquire. We might work with an investment partner on something like that. But we have to be judicious about every little decision. We're growing at 20 to 30% per year right now. And that's a comfortable place to be.
That took time.
Yeah, we started with just enough money for a downpayment on a Cessna Grand Caravan, which was about a $2 million airplane at the time. Three maybe. And we didn't get our second airplane until we made enough money with the first — and so on.
It's elite, but adorable.
It's rare, right? Nobody wants to do that long slog.
Still, you’re flying by the seat of your pants. Because they’re your pants!
Right! (We laugh) But, I think the business world writ large is too focused on this B-school model: get a ton of funding, get a lot of clients, and then figure out how to make money later on. In the tech world, that can work, maybe, if your costs are low. But aviation is a whole different ball of wax. The infrastructure that it takes to perform well is so costly and so massive. And I think one of the mistakes that have been made in this industry is treating aviation like a tech company, because it's not going to work that way. Unless you have an unlimited supply of money to fund losses for a long time.
Let’s talk about the future. I recently interviewed Shai Weiss, CEO of Virgin Atlantic, and he's really into SAF and wants to get sustainable aviation fuel developed and commercialized. Does this affect you at all?
Yes. It’s no secret that aviation is a pretty big emitter of pollution. Airplanes have gotten better at efficiency. But, we're all looking for that kind of paradigm shift moment. On the other end of that spectrum is electrification. That’s going to take a long while, and it may not even be that endgame solution.
It's wonderful to see all the companies that are committing to that, all the funding that's going towards that kind of research and new types of airplanes. But there's some challenges that there are no solutions for yet. The main one is that batteries are heavy.
SAF is an incremental step. And we're very much for it. The great thing about what we're doing is that the Pilatus PC-12 is what they call ‘drop in ready’ for SAF. As soon as we get our hands on SAF, we can use it. And we're committed to using it as soon as it's available in a way that makes sense. Right now, it's both hard to get and also extremely expensive. But that'll change. And we'll start using it.
So which do you think is on a faster track? There are electric helicopters already. And SAF works. You can fly overseas with SAF, which Virgin Atlantic proved.
I think SAF is first for sure, because you can use it with existing airplanes. Large operators can't just change their fleet overnight. If you say to American Airlines, I'm going to introduce a new airplane — that's completely new training for everyone. Pilots, mechanics, everything else. It's a huge lift to change your fleet.
Where I think these new concepts (electric or hydrogen) will take hold first is actually in our space, which is shorter range. To do a 100-mile flight with a battery is much more feasible than a 3,000 mile trip to Europe on a big jetliner because of the weight of the energy that's necessary. So we’re pretty excited because we are in that space. We'll be able to take advantage of that earlier than the rest of the industry.
I want to switch gears, because you’re here in the Bahamas to get a sense of the market. Talk to me about how you source your locations:
We're in the business of supporting people's lifestyles. We're not in the business of telling people where they should go. So in that respect, we need insight into, how do we best support their lifestyle? A place like this is a vacation spot. But we're also in the business of supporting their flight from, say, Boca to Tampa to go see their kids at the equestrian school or whatever it is.
The big equestrian scene in Tampa??
Some areas in Florida are big on that! What's most important is really understanding where those friction points are. We tend to be seen quite a bit as supporting vacation or second homes in Nantucket, St. Barts or in the Bahamas. But a more significant portion of what we do is supporting the behind the scenes boring stuff. You know, dropping the kids off, going to an event or business meeting. The perfect client for us is utilizing us for both getaways and business trips.
Our number one route from a private charter standpoint within Florida is Miami to Tampa.
Are you serious?
Yeah, and it makes sense. It's a relatively short distance. There are airlines that fly it. But the [commercial] experience is so full of friction, that you're spending half the day going on a 45 minute flight. Everyone hates that. If you can take out all of that wasted time on either end, it’s a no-brainer to go private, especially when it's not as expensive as a bigger jet.
What are the top 3 most popular routes for you?
It depends on the time of year. On the vacation side, St. Barts because we've been flying there for so long. And other islands within the Caribbean. In the summertime, Nantucket and Martha's Vineyard, by far. And then in Florida, the Bahamas top three for us so far has been North Eleuthera, Harbour Island and Marsh Harbour for the beautiful hotels and clubs around here.
Beyond that, we're flying those Miami-Tampa or New York-Boston, one of our most requested routes for private charters. Delta does it twelve times a day, but you're wasting half the day doing it. So we do a lot of that: lawyers, bankers, fintech.
Where are you going next, in terms of new routes?
We've only just started in this (Southeast) region. We committed to bringing 6 of our 30 airplanes down here for the winter. It went very well, but it was private charter only. We're also in the scheduled flight business. So, we will be launching two new routes, scheduled from PBI to North Eleuthera and Marsh Harbour starting this winter.
That’s the scoop!
That’s the scoop. We’re doing that research right now. North Eleuthera is currently served by both small and larger airlines, but are they doing it well? There are areas that don't even have scheduled service. Is there a big enough market for us to commit? All of these things come into play.
You get first-mover advantage.
Yes, but oftentimes there's a reason why no one else is doing it! We compete on Nantucket, we compete on St. Barts. You can fly the major airlines to Nantucket, but within the category of scheduled, shared charter convenience? In that market, there are very few. It's okay if there's a competitor in the space, as long as we can differentiate ourselves as a much better product.
There are no shortcuts.
There are no shortcuts. We never want to be in the high volume, compete on price sort of business. We're competing on service. From a planning standpoint, it's identifying those places. Where are people looking for something better? There have been slam dunks in our history. St. Barts was a slam dunk in 2006 when we started flying there, the options were terrible. Everyone was late, bags were left behind. Single pilot airplanes, old airplanes. It was just a no brainer. Since that time, the standard has gotten better. We like to think that we still do it better than anyone.
It's so good that Jeff Bezos showed up for New Year's Eve. Thanks, David.
(Laughs out loud) I didn't bring him there! But, it’s such a unique market. We as a company can't be a one trick pony. And there's so much going on in South Florida. We've always known that the South Florida - Bahamas market is very strong and perfect for what we do. I would have loved to be in the south Florida market 10 years ago, but we didn't have the infrastructure to support it. Now that we do it's an exciting time because we can commit to new markets. The Texas market for short distances is very good, Southern California is very good. There are players in those spaces. And those will be next.